Blood, Artifacts, and Resurrection: The Scientific Case for Jesus | 4/2/26

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (00:00.238)

you

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (00:18.186)

you

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (00:30.83)

That's the best. When I lay in the down to die, going up to the spirit in the sky. Going up to the spirit in the sky. It's where I'm go when I die. When I die and lay me to rest, I'm gonna go to the place that's the best.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (00:59.298)

you

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:10.141)

Prepare yourself, you know it's a must Gonna have a friendly s*** sauce So you know that when you die It's gonna recommend you to the spirit in the sky When you die

Keith Malinak (01:15.512)

Yeah

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:34.7)

You're gonna go to the place that's best

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:51.374)

you

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:57.742)

you

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (02:24.15)

I've never been a sinner, I never sinned I've got a friend in Jesus So you know that when I die He's gonna set me up with the Spirit in the sky Oh, set me up with the Spirit in the sky It's where I'm gonna go when I die

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (02:49.806)

I'm going to go to the place that's the best Going to the place that's the best

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (03:01.582)

you

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (03:09.495)

you

you

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (03:58.222)

2, 3, 4...

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (04:20.269)

I'm not on the pitch, I don't know where to claim I will sing, sing a new song I will sing, sing a new song

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (04:44.014)

to sing their song. Oh, Lord, to sing their song. Oh,

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (05:06.572)

Sing it, baby, sing it,

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (05:13.998)

you

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (05:33.565)

I will sing, sing a new song

will sing, sing a new song. I will sing, sing a new song. I will sing, sing a new song. How long to sing this song?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (06:36.45)

you

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (07:01.518)

you

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (07:23.534)

don't care what they say I don't care what they say I don't care what they say Jesus is just alright

Do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do

Jesus is just alright with me Jesus is just alright with me Jesus is just alright with me Jesus is just alright with I don't care what they may know I don't care what they may know I don't care what they may know Jesus is just alright with me

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (08:46.68)

He's my friend

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (08:53.122)

Cheese!

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (10:15.086)

you

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (10:33.518)

Jesus is just alright, Jesus is alright, yeah! Jesus is just alright, Jesus is just alright!

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (10:50.134)

don't care what they say I don't care what they say I don't care what

Just don't let her in

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (11:08.376)

you

Keith Malinak (11:16.28)

you

Keith Malinak (11:38.05)

Hey, hey, hey, welcome to this edition of At the Mic. I am your host, Keith Malinak. It is Thursday. We do a deep dive every Thursday. And it's kind of become a Maundy Thursday, I guess, tradition, where we talk about the resurrection of Christ. And that's what we're going to do again today. And I'm so excited about this conversation. And if you have this book, you'll definitely want to follow along.

If you don't have it, you'll definitely want to order it. In fact, we'll wait. Why don't you just go ahead and do that right now? Go to Amazon and order the Jesus Discoveries by Dr. Jeremiah Johnston. It is so awesome and well worth your time reading that thing. So I just, there we go. There we go. I got so much stuff here and we're not going to get to it all. I'm going to tell you upfront. This is going to be a conversation that is likely going to span.

at least a couple of deep dive episodes. So we'll see. And my guest who's gonna come in here in just a second, Dr. Jeremiah Johnston. You might hear a doorbell or dogs or something in the background. I've explained to him that that is standard fare for this show. There's not, honestly, we should start keep like a counter this many days without a dog bark being audible.

Because right now it would say, in fact, it would be at zero, I think, for as long as we've been doing this for several years now. So anyway, so my guests might have the same kind of background audio today. As always, I want to thank my teammates. Go to Instagram at The Mike Show. Follow us along over there. Subscribe, whatever the heck it's called. I have no idea. don't even... Gabby takes care of that. So thank you so much, Gabby, for always putting up great stuff over there. Follow her at Jeffy Apologist on X.

She's awesome. Also awesome is hero West. He's the one that makes sure the show is available YouTube.com rumble everything all the links you need Spotify Apple They're all at ATM show.com right there. Thank you to Wes follow him on X at second floor Dallas I always always always forget shame on me. I always forget that I have a graphic for them There they are see that Wes at second floor Dallas and Gabby at Jeffy apologist Yesterday was a little crazy as you know, I was

Keith Malinak (14:03.17)

helping move my mom and stepdad in with us. And so I was all over the place and I had a show ready to go, the Wednesday wild card show for April Fool's Day. And April Fool's didn't post exactly at 3 p.m. Eastern. It got up a little bit after that, but hopefully you enjoyed that. Some fun facts about the April Fool's Day holiday. But I did learn a lesson. And it's that just because you have a draft saved on your ex deal doesn't mean you can just go to another computer.

and post it from there, I learned it has to be at this computer, which I guess defeats the purpose of pre-recording something. But that's my problem, not yours. I just wanted you to understand what was happening yesterday. And I'll try not to let that happen again tomorrow for the Friday live stream. I have no idea who's going to be here. You know, it could be the cardboard mullets again. I don't know. know Kelly's going to be out. Rebecca is going to do our best to be here. We might have the baby with her as well. So we'll see. We might have a co-host, her little

Princess there all the way from Norway. Brad will be here. Is that not enough of a draw? Brad Staggs, the Brad Staggs will be here. And so we'll do the Friday Hangout at 3 p.m. Eastern live on X and then of course YouTube as well. And then like I said, all the links are at ATM show.com. Enough babbling for me. We have limited time today with Dr. Jeremiah Johnston, the author of I'm going to get this whole this whole title out here. Doctor, here we go. It's the Jesus Discoveries.

Ten historic finds that bring us face to face with Jesus. Thanks for making time, sir. This is such a treat, man. Thank you.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (15:36.846)

Keith, I love you. love your show and just so appreciate articulate you are about all cool things. It's just fun to hang out with you for a little bit.

Keith Malinak (15:44.034)

Well, thank you so much. And like I said, there's going to be so many things that we're not going to get to today. But I want my audience to know we'll cover as much as we can today, but we will have you back. And I think we've already decided that that that's going to happen, which is awesome. And I think the great thing about your book, sir, is that it's accessible to everyone. And I don't just mean that and throw away line. And that's what you should put on the jacket cover. It truly is. Because

It provides an opening for a non-believer that wants access to information about Jesus. maybe they're not going to look to the Bible for that information. It's not where they're starting from. But it's also an important thing to have in the arsenal for believers. Because people struggle with their faith. I mean, this isn't a hedgehog by flower. mean, people have doubts. And this thing reinforces it.

from a historical archaeological perspective that is still lacking, I think, in so many avenues of the Christian church today. I want you to... One thing we have to cover today, we have to get to the most fascinating. I was drawn particularly to the chapter, I don't know if we want to start here, but we got to make sure we get here. can see the name of town here, I have it bookmarked here. It's the... I'm probably pronouncing it wrong too.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (16:46.774)

is.

Keith Malinak (17:12.907)

the Sedarium of Ovado. Anyway, I'd never heard of this thing. Anyway, we got to get to that. But just so the people know who you are, what do you like to lead with, man? Because I got president of the Christian Thinker Society, which I think is an awesome title to have. But how do you like to be introduced,

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (17:30.232)

I like to be introduced as the overstressed father of nine-year-old triplets just trying to hold on for dear life.

Keith Malinak (17:37.058)

That's well said. OK, so take us to why you decided to write this book. How did you approach this? Because if I'm not mistaken, you, had your own doubts about the Shroud of Turin that everybody wants to talk about. But even you started in a place where I need some more information, some more evidence on this,

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (17:58.83)

Yes, absolutely. I learned from everyone, but I don't let anyone think for me. So as a Christian thinker, my commitment is to love God with my heart, soul and mind. That's Matthew 22.37, the great commandment, the Pharisees, the nomikos, the scribes, the gramatous in Greek. They're trying to catch Jesus and they say, teacher, what is the greatest command? And of course, some of your audience may know that there were 613 commandments in late Second Temple Judaism.

They were trying to trap Jesus and as only Jesus can do Keith, he changes the Shema, he modifies it. And the Shema was love God with your heart, soul and strength. He has love God with your mind. And I love that. And so I love God with my mind and I love him with my heart. I love him with all of me, but definitely love him with my mind. And there's this great passage. I actually have my Bible here and acts and I did, of course don't have my glasses. So excuse me for a

Keith Malinak (18:49.932)

been there so many times, man.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (18:51.374)

I've got to hold it away, but it's here. I promise. Acts 1-3, after his suffering, this is Jesus, he showed himself to these men and gave many, many, hear that word, convincing proofs that he was alive. And this is why I've written the Jesus discoveries, because the stones are literally crying out right now. I believe that there is a controlled revelation tied to technology.

that's happening right now in the Christian faith as we get closer to the Second Coming. And so my heart is to equip every single believer. It doesn't matter if you became a Christian today or if you're the most long-standing Christian. It doesn't matter where you are in your faith. You need to know more about Jesus because here's the deal. We only have 89 chapters in the Gospel. So my area of specialty, Keith, is I'm a historical Jesus scholar.

So my area of expertise is the gospel, gospels, plural, and also the gospel is not included in the Bible. And what I can tell you is we only have parts of 26 days of the life of Jesus recorded in the gospels. Not 26 24-hour periods. We have only 26 parts of days in the gospels. And this is why John says, you know, if we wrote everything down that Jesus did,

all the miracles you performed. The libraries of the world could not contain it, but these things we have written so that you believe. And so many Christians are unaware of how well evidenced Jesus is from history, how incredibly evidenced he is. And so...

I didn't want to write a boring book because I write a lot of boring books for scholars as an academic. know, dozens of people read them that were happy when that happens. But I was actually challenged. I hope you don't mind me just being so transparent on your show. My children, we always have very interesting dinner dialogues with a family of seven. I have two teenagers and three nine year olds. And they said, dad, tell us everything we need to know about Jesus. But you cannot use the Bible. What do we know about Jesus?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (21:04.91)

Because some of my friends don't want me to say well the Bible says and I was like, okay Let me write a book on that and so I wrote a book and then paid off all of these archaeologists So that I could get permissions to have these great Photographs that are just throughout the book that discuss like the one I'm holding up all the ways in which Jesus is so well evidenced outside of the Bible We've got the Oshawa pictures. We've got it's just fun and what I really appreciate I mean, honestly my biggest challenge right now

is being in the scholarly world. The Lord's allowed me to now write about 20 books, Keith. And so I just did a study Bible by God's grace that took four years. My biggest challenge is I want to write in what Lewis said is the cultural vernacular. And so I want to write for my nine year old son Abel to sit at dinner and read it to me and understand the words, not with big words. We can say big truths and simple statements. That's the amazing thing. The New Testament is simple. You can memorize eight

Excuse me. You can memorize 300 Greek words and recognize eight out of ten word occurrences in the Greek New Testament That's why it's called common Greek. It's a very easy language to understand. That's what I love about the Gospels They're they're not written in hard words only 200 men only 2 million men Excuse me 2 million men could read in the Roman Empire in the time of Jesus day And so this thing of being oral that's why they're the the public

Proclamation of Scripture is so important. I'm sorry for the long answer. And so that's why I wrote it for kids, for parents. And I'm just delighted too, because then I had the challenge of, how does this apply to my life? Like for the moms that are watching right now, they're in the car lineup watching you on Twitter, waiting for their kids like we all do to get out of school. okay, that's really cool that we have a Jesus Cup, but what does that mean for me today? Well, it means that Jesus is a powerful healer and he can heal people today. So.

I try every single chapter calls back to an application of what this means for you today.

Keith Malinak (23:05.99)

That's awesome, man. That's exactly where people need it too. Okay, so I struggled on trying to figure out really where to begin because I know that... And stop me if this is wrong. And by the way, folks, much like you hear the dogs barking here on the show on regular basis, like I mentioned earlier, we will excuse Dr. Johnston.

if he needs to hop up and leave or whatever. He's not, I just, I wanted to give you a public permission on that front because we're so chill on this show and I wanted to make sure that people understand if you hop up and leave. Somebody's got to answer the door, am I right? Okay, I know you talk about the Shroud of Turin and rightfully so. What would say, I'm gonna kind of,

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (23:36.493)

the interview.

a Jehovah's Witness down there.

Keith Malinak (24:00.974)

I'm going throw you this one here. Is there an elevator pitch? Let me do that. Let me do that. Let's say an elevator pitch for a non-believer on the Shroud of Turin. I totally didn't tell him I was going to ask this because it just occurred to me. Is there a concise way to convince somebody and just get the conversation started?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (24:25.026)

I believe we have scientific proof for the moment of Jesus' physical bodily resurrection that 102 academic disciplines find to be unimpeachable.

Keith Malinak (24:36.558)

That's good. Now see, that's good. Then that definitely starts the conversation. So where do you want to begin with, I guess, the shroud? Is that where you want to begin today? Because like I said, this is a conversation that's going to take at least a couple of sit downs, I think. But where do want to begin, sir?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (24:54.124)

Well, the shroud is definitely, I think, germane to our conversation with everything happening right now. And what's interesting about it is there is so much misunderstanding. As I said to Pierce Morgan, it's the most lied about artifact in the world. It's the most studied artifact in the world. I didn't know that. And I had this allergic reaction to Catholic relics. And I don't mean that with any offense to any of your Catholic audience whatsoever.

But I am a historian and I was trained in Oxford to let the evidence speak for itself, which means I have to trace the evidential lines in any discovery. And I thought that the shroud and the Sudarium were just part of the one of the 20,000 relics that they have in the Catholic Church. They have actual they actually have different degrees of relics. And I couldn't have been more wrong, Keith. It wasn't until I began to study it for myself and see that, no, this is an artifact.

It is not a relic. is an artifact. And it did not even come into Catholic hands until 1985. yes, that was another thing many people have to get over. Barry Schwartz, who wrote the Ted Talk on the Shroud, literally said, or not wrote the Ted Talk, he spoke the Ted Talk on the Shroud. You can Google it. He became a dear friend of mine. He made it clear that there are some things really fine Christians get wrong about the Shroud.

And maybe we should talk about some of those, because those are some reasons that great believers are like, no, I'm almost uncomfortable talking about this. so one of them was, this is a graven image. We're violating the second commandment when we look at the shroud. And by God's grace, Keith, I've put like 200,000 people through an exhibit on the shroud now. And I can tell you, I've never seen anyone ever worship it. I've never seen anyone.

I've seen it inspire people's faith, just like when I lead tours to Israel, it inspires faith because guess what? Truth corresponds to reality. So if I want to know truth, I should see realities of that. And so the shroud is not a graven image. No one's worshiping it. No one's praying to it. And here's how Barry would say it. It's also not manmade because the second commandment is don't worship anything that's manmade. And Barry would say, no one is worshiping this. And also, by the way, oh, it's

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (27:13.838)

It's a miracle of God. You know, no one made this. And then another thing that he would often say that was so important is it took 17 years for Barry himself to become a supporter of the shroud. He was on the original team in 1978, the Shroud of Turin research project that studied the shroud and actually performed all of the scientific testing. Amazingly, he still wasn't convinced, Keith. And I don't know if you've heard this story before. He's a Jewish man. He's now

dead. I hope and pray he's in heaven. But it took 17 years for him to be convinced of the shroud's authenticity. He was convinced it wasn't a 700 year old shroud. So he was convinced it was an old shroud. But what convinced him that it was Jesus on the shroud? So let me be clear on that. He was never wondering or convinced by the carbon dating that the shroud was only 700 years old. What he was worried, what he was concerned about was who is the man of the shroud.

because that's really the question that your audience has to answer. Who is the man of the shroud? And then if it's Jesus, who do you say Jesus is? Who is Jesus to you? And it wasn't until the blood type was revealed by the hematologists Adler and Heller, that it's type AB blood, it's human blood, and it's Semitic blood. Fewer than 6 % of the world's population has Semitic type AB blood, and that was the linchpin for Barry to go to say, I 100 % believe it's Jesus's.

burial cloth and he told me that directly I have that first hand.

Keith Malinak (28:44.514)

So yeah, that is fascinating stuff right there. But I also know that you talk about how it's traumatized blood. Explain how they determine that. I find that fascinating.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (28:59.246)

I am fascinated by it. I've read all of the hematologists. When I say 102 academic disciplines have studied and published the shroud, you can go find these disciplines. You can read their peer review journals and medical journals and scientific journals and journals of Archaeometry. And there's a fascinating study recently by hematologists. Those are doctors who study blood.

You go see a hematologist, like if you have lymphoma or God forbid leukemia or blood cancer, and they can tell that in this blood, not only is it red because when blood is traumatized, that was a big thing that skeptics would often say. They would say, well, there's absolutely no way that this blood can stay red, so it has to be painted. Well, the Shroud of Turin research project proved that there is no...

dye, there is no pigment, there is no paint, there is no breast strokes. That's what they proved. And they also proved that the image, Keith, and I hope I'm not going too down, far down the rabbit hole with you, but the image is superficial. It is 0.02 microns thin. So, you know, if I have a legal pad here, you know, that I was writing on earlier and you know, my magic marker goes all the way through, but that's not what happens on the shroud.

The shroud, the image, the blood absorbs, but the image is 0.02 microns thin, which is like one, forgive me for taking my head off, it's like one strand, it's one fifth of the strand of your hair. That's how thin and superficial the image is on the shroud. And so when I say that science cannot replicate it, that's what they're saying. And so they study the blood and it stayed red because when blood's been traumatized, the red blood cells.

break down into more bilirubin and that's what's kept the blood red all of these years. But the fascinating thing, so that was one study, but then on an airplane recently I was reading this very deep hematological study and the only reason I could even understand it is that my God, praise God, God healed my dad of stage four cancer. And I remember his ferritin level was extremely high, which meant my dad was experiencing.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (31:15.274)

organ failure and I remembered everything that went through that and then I read that the same problem Jesus was experiencing. has huge, any doctors watching right now are nurses, his ferritin levels are sky high, his creatinine levels are sky high, he's dehydrated, his kidneys are shutting down, he loses likely one-third of his blood volume during the flogging and so again, praise God that the Lord healed my dad, but I was able to recognize

that wow, this is blood of a man that went through a demonic level of torture.

Keith Malinak (31:53.174)

Wow. That's the thing. Whenever you stop to think of that torture, I mean, that's the word I don't think is used often enough to describe what he went through.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (32:06.062)

So like when I brought my Bible, because I love you and your show, like we I want to go to a different passage. If I can read it without my, you know, I get everything here but my glasses.

Keith Malinak (32:16.162)

You know what? Today's a rare day. I have not one, but two pairs of glasses within reach, which is rare that I have one. So,

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (32:25.142)

So I'm reading now from John 19 and to your excellent point Keith, then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged. That's the verse, John 19.1. And if you're having your devotions, you read that and you just move right along past it and you have no idea what is behind flogging, what happened to Jesus. Then the very next verse is,

The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothe them in a purple robe. And, and I mean, John condenses in two sentences, one of the most, if not the most brutal experiences a man has ever experienced who just happened to be the God man, Jesus. And that's what we see on the shroud. We see 700 lashes. see.

the side wound between rib five and six. In fact, in my book, The Jesus Discoveries, I have a photograph just to help people. It's on page 30, where I point out all of the different wound patterns, which I'm holding up, that correspond to what we read of crucifixion narratives that are embedded in the Gospels. And it's just beyond all reproach, the shoulder abrasions.

the scourge marks, the foot wounds, the wrist wounds, and of course, which puts it beyond all doubt for me without a doubt, without a single doubt. What puts it beyond all doubt for me is the fact that he wore a crown of thorns for us, you know, I just, I know that, I hope you don't mind me being transparent on your show.

Keith Malinak (34:03.854)

Please.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (34:06.83)

I believe it's the resurrection cloth of Jesus because I'm not irrational. A nuclear event occurs. And so I don't want to say I'm a Bible scholar to sound arrogant. That's not my heart at all because I'm a lifelong learner. one thing I know, a PhD knows a lot about a little, okay? And the little that I know a lot about is Jesus. And every time Keith, that Jesus appears,

He appears in magnificent light. We could go to Mark 9 to the transfiguration. Your audience didn't know they had to do a Bible study with Dr. JJJ today, by the way. So I hope that's okay. Mark 9, Jesus appears as brilliant light. And Keith, if you and I were there, we would have wanted to stay there. There was something about Jesus in this light around him. They wanted to be in his presence even more. In Acts 26, Paul, who was killing Christians, says he's on his way to Damascus, Keith, and he says,

he sees a light that's brighter than the noonday sun. Remember that. And then Revelation says that we will have no need for the sun someday because Jesus will give light to all. So is it too far-fetched for us to interpret the Bible in such a way that at the moment of Jesus's resurrection, a nuclear event occurs, a light that is so powerful, an energy so powerful, my friend, the physicist, which I write about in the book,

says quantifies it at 34 billion watts of energy, but it was the speed at which the energy was traveling at 1 4th of a billionth of a second that left this superficial image on the shroud. And that to me is consistent with Jesus appears in his resurrection glory. That's what brings it. He conquers sin with a slam dunk. He conquers Satan with a slam dunk. So for me, you know, you have to see it from my perspective. All these verses are washing over me.

as I'm studying this. so yes, do we have scientific evidence for the shroud? Absolutely. And I have not yet sent her to a single thing that's caused me to doubt that. And I have gone to the expense and the effort to fly all over the world and meet with, you know, the most ardent skeptics about it, the most ardent scientists. And I'm here to tell you it's legit. And by the way, I mean, the resurrection is so airtight. have a whole

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (36:22.988)

not promoting anything, but I have a whole nother book called Body of Proof because of how airtight the resurrection case is. And guess what? I don't mention the shroud one time. So it's not like my belief hinges on it. Yeah. But again, I go back to Acts one three, many convincing proofs. And then I think about John. Well, if we said everything that he did, the libraries couldn't contain it. So why is it far fetched to think that with archaeology today, we're not going to discover things that

corroborate what we read in scripture. Why is that hard for people to accept? And also, I'm saying all the controversial stuff on your show, by the way. I appreciate my friends in the Catholic Church, but we don't give our Eastern Orthodox buddies any credit. And you know, the Greek Orthodox protected the shroud for the first thousand years. And this is something I'm trying to make famous right now. Like the church,

When I say the church, mean the capital C, every single person that's placed their trust in Jesus, no matter what tradition they are, according to the Bible, they're forgiven. And so the shroud belongs to the unified church. That's what I want to say. It doesn't belong to the Catholic church. It doesn't belong to the Protestant church. It doesn't belong to evangelical churches. It belongs to the church of the bride of Christ, all of us who are born again Christians. And so I want to also give credit to the Greek Orthodox. mean, you've got...

Justinian the second holding back the caliphate in the late How would you how would you like to live in the late sixth seventh century bro the Umayyad dynasty and the eighth I mean I know a thing or two about Islam I've written books and debated Muslims

Keith Malinak (38:02.804)

Yeah, ask Vienna how that went, right?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (38:04.974)

Yeah, it's like we need to give the Greek Orthodox more credit for protecting it in Constantinople. So I hope this isn't boring. I'm just sharing what's at stake with it, what rises and falls with the Shroud and why it's okay that we have new evidence. And again, that's just one of 10 things in the book.

Keith Malinak (38:21.516)

That's right. Well, and that's the thing. And my brain is going in multiple directions here on my next line of question. you focused on 10 things in here. But this list could have gone so much deeper. You have so many proofs. there's a few things here. I want to talk about all the pollen in

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (38:46.38)

Yeah, that's huge.

Keith Malinak (38:47.598)

Is that that and I want to get a I want to I mentioned it earlier. I want to talk about that other cloth. But but before we get back to the the shroud and the what is it the soderium

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (38:58.936)

Yeah, yeah, and that's, let me help you with that. Because again, no one taught me this. took three years of my life to figure out, to do all this. So, sudarium, that's actually a Greek word that you're quoting. It's the sudarium of Oviedo. Oviedo is in Spain. So, you literally are quoting Greek. You don't even know that. That is the term in John 20. For face cloth, we read face cloth in English. The term is sudarium.

Keith Malinak (39:17.536)

Look at

Keith Malinak (39:28.43)

Okay, very good, very good. So let's jump back to that. But let me just make this point because this has always resonated with me as a Christian that has questions that, you know what? I believe Jesus is the son of God, of course. But I mean, you have moments. I mean, we all have those moments of doubt and we're like, maybe, and I think that's natural. And if it's just me, then whatever, there's my moment of vulnerability. But the things that really seal it for me is the...

If you're going to do a hoax, you're going to say that the resurrection didn't happen, why are you leading with women? They're the first ones on the scene. And if you're going to try to perpetuate a hoax, I doubt you're going to rely on the testimony of two women spreading that news. Is that a fair point? That's one of the things.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (40:24.15)

I have to ask you something. Have you read my book, Body of Proof? I'm sorry to put you on the So listen to this. Okay. Literally, I have a chapter. I'm going to pull it up right now. Okay. I'm in Chicago Society of Biblical Literature. I'm pulling it up right now because I'm on Logos Bible Software.

Keith Malinak (40:28.328)

No, no, no, I have not.

Keith Malinak (40:42.082)

And as you're looking that up, I want to confess that it's shame on me, man, because I know you've been in the building. Glenn Beck. But no, what I'm saying is. no, I understand. But what I'm saying is I know that you have been in the building with Glenn Beck. And I just I never crossed paths with you. I didn't hear that show. I just thought, wow, guys talking about the Shrouded Tour in there. I had no idea anything was wrong with Pat. And now I'm like.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (40:49.502)

No, don't do that.

Keith Malinak (41:10.946)

Realizing my gosh this guy's got a lot of creative

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (41:14.12)

All in God's time. you just made a phenomenal point. So here's chapter 12 of my book, Body of Proof. This is the title of the chapter. Are you ready for this,

Keith Malinak (41:23.362)

Yeah, yeah, I'm about to make a banner for you while you say this, but go ahead.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (41:27.094)

If the disciples invented the story of Jesus's resurrection, they did a terrible job. That is the title of my chapter. that has helped reach so many people because and I actually so this is a popular book. But in 2012, I was at the Society of Biblical Literature Conference, which is five thousand Bible scholars. Half of them are nuts. Crazy.

And so you get up, you get papers and people can respond. I mean, it's a lot of fun. It's a scholarly conference. And so I stood up along with William Lane Craig, Craig Keener, Craig Evans, some, I mean, high level scholars. But this was like a paper I presented that I kind of saw what you did. Like if you wanted to invent a resurrection or a religion, if Keith and I wanted to invent a religion, we never would have invented it with the talking points of Christianity.

Romans hated crucifixion. I don't know if you know this, the most detailed accounts we have of crucifixion from antiquity are our scriptures. The Roman historians don't even describe crucifixion because it wasn't relevant to them because not even the worst Roman citizen was crucified. That was for slaves and lesser types of people. So people don't realize how detailed the Gospels are.

Like you just said, we would have never chosen female witnesses. We wouldn't have said our savior was resurrected. This is why you have to understand at the Aeropagus in Acts 17, when Paul stands up in front of the most brilliant people of his day, they're letting him talk. But do you remember what he mentions where they shut him down? He mentions the resurrection. And as soon as that comes out of his mouth, they mock him and they literally shut him up.

So again, if we wanted to invent, what do we see in the gospels? And I said it, this is off memory now. We actually have almost like reserved, embarrassed, sobering details. Kind of like, this is how it happened. We have a guy running away naked at one point, John Mark. We have Thomas saying, I'm not gonna believe, bro, unless I can touch the nails in his hands. Like we wouldn't have read it that way. Like that's not a best seller. That is not a best seller.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (43:39.522)

There is embarrassing details that as a historian who has read other works that are legendary, fanciful, wow, the gospels are something different. Isn't that cool? That's a great point that you're so I just want to validate the point that you're making. And it is a great point of how to talk about how truthful. I mean, I'm not the only one who said this. The great my good friend, the great NT Wright, Tom Wright.

He makes the same statement. mean, resurrection, no one believed, not even Jews. Like people, people read Isaiah 53 now and think, oh, all the Jews believed Isaiah 53. No, they didn't. Go read the Qumran passages. 4Q 285 said that the Roman governor would literally, or excuse me, the Messiah, not the Roman governor, the 4Q 285, they believe when the Messiah came, he would kill the Roman emperor and he would kill the Romans, the Khatim.

He would actually vanquish a corrupt priesthood, get rid of all those priests that are totally corrupt, the sadicces. He would cleanse the temple and proclaim himself God. So in the Essene-Cumran community, no one is expecting our Savior to die naked on the cross and be resurrected.

Keith Malinak (44:51.662)

Right, right. That's great. And let me throw, I'm gonna screw this one up. Okay, so I should quit while I'm ahead and just say, why would you have the women, you know, being the ones to spread the story of the resurrection and the tomb and being empty and all. The other thing, and please, I'm asking you, this isn't a courtesy, jump in here when I start screwing this up. The mercy seat, right? The Ark of the Covenant. The way the...

the chair of them, They're positioned. It's the same way that they were positioned in the empty tomb, which is just mind blowing. All right, so they get it on right too.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (45:30.894)

Yeah, and beyond that, I believe that when Jesus is crucified, because people, you know, you go to Israel now, it's so hard to understand what it was like on April 5th, or excuse me, April 3rd, AD 33, Jesus is likely crucified facing the temple, outside of the city, but facing the temple. Can you imagine that in your mind's eye? So there's a line of sight.

Literally from Calvary to the temple and all the way to Arimathea's tomb, which is only 200 feet away So if you can imagine he's dying while the paschal lambs are being slaughtered and literally while he's dying looking at the at the at the tomb at the at the temple The veil is torn. I mean, so I mean just I've actually created with some of my friends at Stargate studios I want to show people this alignment. It's not like the cross was

I mean, you could have not, I mean, this was Herod's temple. Like it was always in view. kind of anywhere you crucified him, really, you're going to see the temple. But we have it in AI now where, I mean, he's crucified on an eight to nine foot cross. And can you imagine our savior? He's literally staring at our, at the Holy of Holies while he's being crucified. I need to go get the door. Stand by for his.

Keith Malinak (46:45.432)

You do that. You do that. Yes, sir. And Dr. Johnston's time is limited today, but please rest assured, this will be a continuing conversation that we will pick up at a later time. I do have a couple of more questions for him before we go, though, because it's just a fascinating conversation. it's something, it's a conversation that Christians have to have. And in fact, let me mute his microphone here until he comes back. I don't need to hear about his business there.

But this is the kind of conversations we need to have. It's not just always, you know, hey, let's sit down for the sermon and raise our hands and all that. These are the kind of intellectual conversations that I personally, speaking for myself, these historic fact conversations do more for me than anything else. And so I think it's important to have these conversations. In fact, I was just about to enter in another banner, a new banner here.

And I should have done this first and that's shame on me. The name of the book is the Jesus Discoveries by Dr. Jeremiah Johnston. Let's see if I spelled everything right. I think so. Let's see here. There you go. Jesus Discoveries by Jeremiah Johnston. So yeah, so this is a holy week starts today, right? Maundy Thursday, we got Good Friday tomorrow and then Easter Sunday coming up this weekend.

And so this would be a good time to share that book. Actually, you got a good conversation started there. one of the things that in addition, because obviously the Shroud of Turin is fascinating in of itself. But the second cloth that I'm not letting him go, I don't care if we're running late at all. I'm going to say, man, I can't let you go until we get some more information on this Sedarium of Oviedo. Did I get that right, y'all?

he is. And you know what? you know, if it's not today, there's going be another conversation that we're going to have about the books that didn't make the cut for the Bible. We're going to cover so much. I don't know that you all understand this because I haven't. Well, I haven't said it, but I typed up four pages of questions that I had for him. And we've barely maybe we're halfway through page one.

Keith Malinak (49:11.864)

So I don't know. I don't know how many conversations it's going to take to cover everything, but I guarantee you I'm going to try to get answers to all of them. Hey, welcome back. Sorry.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (49:23.278)

see you in your audience and I'm happy to come back anytime. We want to get through every single question.

Keith Malinak (49:28.942)

Well, I was just telling them that we're about halfway through one page and I've got four pages, but pretend you didn't hear that because that's a lot of talking. OK, so before you have to go, let's go back to the Shroud of Turin. Why does it have all of this pollen on it? How exactly was it being protected for a thousand years by the Eastern Orthodox Church? And then don't forget that other cloth that we have to talk about that I'm so fascinated with.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (49:55.682)

Well, golly, you asked me all the hard questions and then you want a 30 second answer.

Keith Malinak (50:00.45)

HAHA! Bruh! You answer what you can and then...

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (50:04.192)

You want an answer that took people five years of their lives. So I'm showing a this is from a book we put together called Who's the Man in the Shroud. It's just super helpful. This is free in all of our exhibits. We have 12,000 people going to our exhibit in Houston right now and a ton and prosper. But I want you to see Max Frye. That's the reason I'm pulling it up. This is a cool thing, Keith, about how relaxed your show is. I get to do things. That's Max Frye. Can you see?

He's using 3M Scotch tape on the actual shroud. Can you believe that? And he's collecting the pollen with Scotch tape.

Dr. is a Swiss criminologist. Dr. Fry would use this tape to extract all the pollen samples. These pollen samples contain grain and mineral particles. When studied, provide amazing insight. There are 58 pollen spores, 38 of which are found, and that's the map, right there. That's exactly where they grow in springtime. For those that can't see it,

Keith Malinak (51:06.636)

Okay.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (51:16.59)

That's the land of Israel. And guess what? They bloom at Passover springtime. So if you're going to hope, how do you even know that? know, and that's what's so fascinating. And unfortunately, he died too soon. he like he worked on the Hitler diaries. I mean, this is a legit criminologist. So, Keith, I'm not up here like quoting a pastor. mean, and by the way, you know, it's.

Keith Malinak (51:25.44)

that so much.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (51:41.4)

There's a part of me that said, mean, he spent five years of his life for me to just tell you that in 30 seconds, you know, he went to all of these places with these pollens to prove this. And that's one thing that I'm trying to do just to share with you. Like I spoke at the Augustin Institute last summer, and this is the scientific Institute on the shroud.

And was honored, honestly, that they asked me because I'm there with the physicists. I'm adding my area of specialties as a historical Jesus scholar. But you know what I noticed, Keith? They're all going to be dead in the next five years. So we have to carry this message forward. so for whatever reason, I feel led to do that too. And you'll notice in all my shows, don't tell you, I am, I told my wife, feel like I'm a, Luke, the gospel writer Luke, he collated all of this information.

Keith Malinak (52:18.133)

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (52:35.776)

and he wrote the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts. That's kind of what I feel like for this route. Sure, I can add expertise into one of those 102 academic disciplines. Like I can add expertise about how Jesus was crucified, Jewish burial traditions and empty tomb traditions. The rest of it, I'm just standing on these amazing scientists' shoulders, but the Lord has given me an ability. I honestly think it's just because I'm nine-year-old triplets who go screensaver on me if I get boring.

But to actually listen to, like I listened to two hours of Robert Rucker, a nuclear engineer, trying to, we can get really down the rabbit hole. In our next show, I want to explain how the shroud actually dates to the future. Okay. You hear what I just said?

Keith Malinak (53:18.76)

Anything you want to bring that that's very nice.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (53:21.998)

This is insane. I have it on video interviewing him and I and he took two hours to explain it to me and this is when I was getting ready to go on Pierce and I said, okay, well, I don't have two hours and I'm gonna be debating a guy who is anti-shred and then Pierce surprised me with an atheist. So it was one verse two is that they like to do that on those kind of shows, which was fine. I mopped the floor with them. I'm fine to do that. But I said, Robert, I said I need

Keith Malinak (53:38.766)

.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (53:51.766)

a way to say this a little faster than the two hours you just did. And he said, Dr. Johnston, you just need to explain to the audience a nuclear event occurred at the moment of Jesus's resurrection that left the resurrection residue on the shroud. I was like, OK, got it.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (54:10.996)

A nuclear event. He's a nuclear engineer. He's like, that's the only thing we can compare it to.

Keith Malinak (54:14.862)

See, look, another elevator pitch for you for the way back down the building. See what I mean? You got, you got a couple of different ways you could go there.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (54:24.44)

So can you imagine like there's a video out there and so you have the other thing we've got to talk about real quick. I'm gonna actually interrupt one of your questions. This is so cool man. And I have not taught. I just haven't had the time yet and all these different programs because what I like I'm bringing different stuff to your show.

Keith Malinak (54:40.854)

Yeah, thank you. That's one thing I should have said at the onset here.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (54:44.686)

This is not re- we're not retreading the tires of Tucker Carpenter.

Keith Malinak (54:47.662)

Make sure that you send this to people and they'll say, well, I already saw him on Sean Ryan show. No, no, no, no, this is different stuff. We made sure this was different. So just you can send this in confidence that this is new information that they didn't get on these other shows.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (55:00.962)

I want your audience to see this image, which very few people ever do. Those are two physicists, Eric Jumper and John Jackson. They're physicists from the Air Force Academy. They're working in New Mexico, it either Sandia Labs or Los Alamos Laboratories. mean, like literally, Keith, when I tell you I've met scientists, these are rocket scientists, okay? Like not joking, they're literal rocket scientists. Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California, Sandia, Los Alamos, New Mexico.

So those two guys that I just showed you, they have a VP8 image analyzer. This gets crazy. This gets, they have an image of the shroud. And what is a VP8 image analyzer? Well, you have to go back to the 1970s, the cold war is, you know, as cold as it gets. And they're studying the effects of nuclear bombs on the surface of planet earth.

VP8 image analyzers look at light depth fields. Okay, and it's an analog machine. I don't know if we want to geek out too much. It's not it's a it's an analog

Keith Malinak (56:07.368)

I'm not the one that has to go. So you do what you need.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (56:10.284)

So this analog machine, they have a picture of the shroud, these two physicists, and they would ride to work together and just talk about cool stuff. This is what I love about you and I, like, just talking about fun stuff, cool ideas emerge from that. And they drove to work together. It was like a, what did they call it? Like they would carpool to work. And they would just talk about, have you heard about the shroud and blah, blah, blah? And they said, well, I'll bring it over to your house tonight. We'll have a beer.

Keith Malinak (56:31.328)

time well spent there yeah

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (56:40.008)

And let's put it through the VPA and just see what happens. Because they have pictures of like their family and grandchildren. And if you put like, sorry to use my own, like if you put a normal picture through it, it's just all garble. Dude, they put the picture of the shroud. And it has this 3D quality to it, this depth field where there is information where the shroud is not even touching the body.

There is no contact with the body and you still see the image. This is where I had to on a couple articles on the blaze. I had to absolutely blast this 3D guy who claimed that the shroud was a hoax because this is what people don't miss. The shroud has image on it where it is not in contact with the body. Do you understand what I'm saying? There's nothing in contact with it that would leave an image.

Keith Malinak (57:10.392)

That is f-

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (57:34.67)

They didn't drape it on some kind of wood like mannequin. You have information on there. And so that VPA image analyzer produces this holographic, sorry, photo where it looks like a hologram.

And this is night.

And they're all saying, what in the world is this? And that, this is what a lot of people don't realize. What caused the shroud to be studied in 1978? What those two physicists did in 1976. Isn't that cool information?

Keith Malinak (58:08.942)

That is super cool. just point of clarification, Mary's asking the book that you're holding up there, which book is that where you're getting those images from?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (58:17.26)

Well, it's called Who's the Man of the Shroud, but we give it, mean, our exhibits are free and these are all banners where you can go take pictures. There's QR codes. So if you come up to one of my, and then I have, I mean, all of this now is in the, you know, the Shroud book. So, or the Jesus books, the Jesus discovery. So, but I want to just show that because those pictures are readily available and very helpful. And then I also map it out where

Keith Malinak (58:35.362)

discover.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (58:44.11)

you can actually see where everything is on the shroud very helpfully.

Keith Malinak (58:48.863)

And so where can people go to see all of those?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (58:53.198)

This is website, has all of it, just YouTube, your show, stay tuned. Why send them anywhere? Stay tuned until we talk next.

Keith Malinak (59:01.29)

Okay, I just didn't know there was like a location or something.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (59:04.942)

don't even sell this anymore. Like this is just a, this is just a ministry thing. Like this is a, I had to learn it for myself and you know, we have a whole section on the blood. Here's, this is cool. If you don't mind me showing you this, you see that that is actual blood on the shroud.

Keith Malinak (59:21.422)

Do you see it? That's awesome.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (59:23.406)

So that's a herringbone weave shroud. And here's a cool picture. That's under the microscope. You can see the herringbone weave and then that's blood all over it. And this is where it's so important that people realize the blood soaks through the shroud. The image does not. Like again, it took me so long to figure this out. Like, okay, hold on, let me get this straight. Because I was like, okay, why is the image...

You know, have my wife has really helped me to like, Jeremiah, you have to explain this so people understand the chronology. Jesus dies at three o'clock on Friday. Good Friday. He is dead. His been Arimathea and Nicodemus. If you know, if you read your Bible, those are two members of the Sanhedrin. They have to hurry Keith to get him buried before death, before nightfall, because in Jewish burial traditions, you never were in a graveyard at night. You always buried the dead on the day of their death.

before nightfall, okay? So they are rushing and this gets back to your Sudarian question When he's dead on the cross and these are probably two older men we should expect these aren't strong young bucks So it takes a minute for them. Do you think someone there was no service to like say hey? Let us help pry this guy off the cross for you You know there was no door dash for that like you you did it yourself and What's fascinating is are you still there Keith?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:00:51.502)

Did I lose you, Keith?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:00:58.478)

You seem to be frozen.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:01:15.242)

I am still here if this is live. I'm in the show.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:02:15.95)

Yeah, I'm here. Apparently I'm still here and uh

Keith is not.

Keith Malinak (01:02:34.7)

There he is. Wow. So I'm guessing they disconnected my Internet out here because they're doing work down the street. Hopefully you can hear me. Can you hear me OK?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:02:46.962)

I can hear you great and I just kept going and I was hoping and praying you were going to come back.

Keith Malinak (01:02:53.794)

Well, well, I'm back and here I am, but I know you have to go anyway, so the timing was almost perfect. so listen, please, you do you talk, ignore me. Go ahead.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:03:00.446)

Finish this thought though.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:03:05.198)

So these are older men who Nicodemus and Arimathea, that's where we left off, they have to ask by the pilot for the body of Jesus and at which time he is hanging on the cross, there is no door dash to come rescue the body off the cross, like you have to do it yourself, otherwise he's going to be thrown in a mass criminal grave pit, that's disgusting. But they want to honor Jesus, they give him a proper burial, not an honorable burial, a proper burial.

Keith this is when they wrap while he's still dead on the cross They take a cloth and almost like a pillowcase and they wrap it around his whole head He's bleeding so profusely One of them actually pinches the nose Well, they get him off the cross because so much blood is oozing out of his body from being brutalized because in Jewish burial traditions The life is in the blood the blood was sacred you were not gonna like let his blood just kind of drip everywhere as you drug him to

That would have been gone against all Jewish sensitivities. So his face is covered until they get to Arimathea's tomb 200 feet away. Imagine in your mind two older men carrying Jesus. He weighs 170, 180 pounds. I to me it inspires me, their commitment to Christ. I mean, I'm sure there were other members of Sanhedrin mocking saying, what are these guys doing? What is Arimathea doing? He's the rich dude. He's the head of the country club. What is he doing?

And they lay Jesus's naked body on the shroud. They remove the face cloth because then they cover the rest of his body with the shroud. Face cloth goes in the corner of the tomb. They wrap the complete pita, you know, one content. It's like a sheet over the body. Then they have athonia strips around that to keep his mouth closed, keep his arms together because the body will go into rigor mortis. And that is the chronology.

Then, so there's blood on the shroud. The women are coming to the tomb Sunday morning. Why? Because they're going to finish the job. I don't know if you cut off or not, but Jesus dies at three o'clock. He has to be buried before six p.m. or by six p.m. So the women are coming to continue spicing the body. Why? Because they will sit shiva for seven days inside the tomb and they will worship God and grieve Jesus's death.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:05:33.07)

They have spices. They're going to finish cleaning the body. A lot of Christians are like, well, there shouldn't be any blood because the Bible says they wash his body. They did not give him a full wash. They had to hurry up. This is where it's my job to take you back to the world of the tech. They might have wiped off some of the blood, but the women are coming to finish the job. They're going to completely finish washing the body. They're going to completely spice the body. This is why we have no spices on the actually, no aloes or meres on the shroud.

They're finishing it, but they show up on that Sunday morning and the 2,750 pound stone cover is removed. They walk in and Keith are astonished because the shroud is there and there's no body there. Now, can I share something with you? I've not shared on any other show. This is so cool, man. This is legit scholarship that I'm working on right now. What I'm doing right now is, okay, this is so awesome.

Keith Malinak (01:06:21.356)

Please.

Keith Malinak (01:06:32.716)

I love it.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:06:33.294)

You want new stuff? I'll give you new stuff because I'm a lifelong learner. we have an edict. Obviously in my book, I talk about the Nazareth inscription, which maybe we can get into next time, that it was a crime punishable by death to enter a tomb under Claudius, who was the emperor right after Jesus was murdered and resurrected. So that's unique timing. But we've actually uncovered a new text. This is fascinating.

And I presented this on Sunday night with my colleague Craig Evans. We actually have a problem in antiquity that grave robbers would enter tombs because shrouds were so valuable. They would steal the shrouds, leave the body, and then go resell the shrouds. And so there's a whole edict on not doing that that I'm looking at literally in Greek right now. I wish I could share my screen where it says you would. Yeah.

Exactly. is just so interesting. But what do we have, I mean, to summarize for your audience, we have the exact opposite taking place. These were no grave robbers. The body was not stolen. They left behind the most valuable thing, which would have been Arimathea's literal grave clothes. And yet there's no body there. How cool is that?

Keith Malinak (01:07:56.078)

I love this stuff, man

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:07:59.054)

Does that make sense? Is that what I'm trying to say? Like, that's why they have to issue these edicts. And as far as I know, I've not shared that on any other show because I just presented it Sunday at an academic conference.

Keith Malinak (01:08:10.142)

that's super cool. I love this kind of stuff because it just, anything to reinforce the divinity of Christ through historical facts, I mean, that is so important. And I just love the way you present it. I love the way it's presented in the book, the Jesus Discoveries. And I look forward to future conversations with you on this topic because it is so important that questions get answered.

And to the satisfaction where, I mean, look, there are matters of faith. I get that. But boy, this right here, the historical record confirming the story of Christ and the resurrection is so important and it's so fascinating. And I just love this stuff and I appreciate you taking the time. And I'm very sorry to you and to the audience. They painted, just so you know, they painted the, in our yards, they put the flags down, you know, like, okay. And then as you saw the cable truck.

And then I pulled onto the road coming home today and I saw the truck was back and I was like, please no, please not today. I knew this was going to happen. I just, didn't want to say it out loud. And here we are. knew, I guarantee you when I get done here today, I'm going to walk out there and I'm going to walk down the street and I'm going to talk to him I'm going to, I'm going to confirm tomorrow on the Friday live stream. that's exactly what happened. So I apologize for the technical difficulties. I appreciate you rolling with it and the audience sticking around.

and I look forward to our future conversations. there anything that you want to add here, Dr. Johnston, before we go?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:09:45.742)

just appreciate the friendship with you. can't, I'm delighted. Let's keep this conversation going. I hope I didn't talk too much, because I wanted to get to more of your questions, but it's just so fascinating to talk about. So let's do it again. Let's leave these cliffhangers and everyone go to church Sunday, worship our risen King. And I have to jump off because I'm taking my amazing wife on a hot date tonight, which I can't wait. We actually have, we have childcare.

Keith Malinak (01:09:56.334)

Man

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:10:12.514)

You might have to bail me out of jail later, Keith. I'm going to go crazy with my wife tonight because I love her so much. thank you for your patience with me.

Keith Malinak (01:10:20.655)

Definitely, sir. All right, go get the book, The Jesus Discoveries, Dr. Jeremiah Johnson. Thank you so much, sir. We'll talk to you again soon. Thank you,

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:10:26.638)

All right, love you, Keith. Thanks, bro.